Trade Regulations - Discussion

b1ooper wrote:It seems like a lot of these trades were made with players people didn't actually have on their team at the time unbeknownst to the one taking the offer.

I'd like to think that full knowing what some of the people were giving/receiving in this deal, some of them could have come up with a better trade for just a normal two team trade.

Completely untrue. I informed every team receiving a player not on my roster that they were not on my roster.

mikesuszek wrote:

b1ooper wrote:It seems like a lot of these trades were made with players people didn't actually have on their team at the time unbeknownst to the one taking the offer.

I'd like to think that full knowing what some of the people were giving/receiving in this deal, some of them could have come up with a better trade for just a normal two team trade.

Hence, had I known what was happening, I could have gotten Revis instead. I think everyone feels that way.

The fact is, I don't care that Revis was on the block at one point in time. Kevin could have done himself a favor, like everyone should, and shopped Revis around, or re-announced it. The league isn't going to remember that Revis is on the block. And not everyone has the time to make trades like this, which almost feels unfair (not that it is).

This is similar to Ray Rice-gate. Dr. Ken did himself a disservice by taking the first pick coming his way for Rice, instead of shopping around more. Kevin did shop around, denied other, possibly better trade offers, and then waited for everyone to forget before agreeing to a trade with Jeff. In Jeff's case, he knew he needed two o-lineman to make the trade happen, so he pulled from other teams to do it, making deals as he went.

I don't feel that I am obligated to create competition for myself. Why should I share my intentions? Each deal was with one team and the cowboys. If you think of it that way it occurred in this order...

Cowboys and Texans
Cowboys and Lions
Cowboys and Packers
Cowboys and Vikings

Why should I tell the Texans that I intend to trade my new players. After our trade is made they are my players. Why would I want to create a competitor?

I'm sorry for my consecutive replies. No one told me this thread existed so I am just catching up.

RealJeffSolo wrote:Nothing was hidden. It was not a 3 way trade. (or however many). Every player went through me. I just announced them all simultaneously.

Look at who I gave the Texans. All players from me.

Ah well, Kevin is just terrible at trading then (sorry Kevin)

FORUMS!

Huhnerficker wrote:

Katbot wrote: Yeah, no. There's no way the SC can look at it objectively. What if what you perceive to be a "dumb trade" involves a division rival?

That is why other people (eight) look at it. Division Rival or not I can be fair. I don't think it is saying much for our members to say everyone is an asshole only looking out for themselves.

Or how about this. A Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart once said,"hard-core pornography was hard to define, but that I know it when I see it"

You can't tell me a majority of eight people can't follow that principle? Even then we have the depleted SC to make a final call. I think it works.

The only example of where there should be any intervention is when a lie is the basis of a deal. Such as a team trading for a player being out for the season and not being told or someone saying he is 98 speed when he is actually 78. Or someone announcing a trade with out first being granted permission.

Other than examples like those, of intentional deception, I think it is inappropriate for a trade to be over ruled.

I suggest that if there are any trade reviews, SC members of that division should be allowed to provide feedback but shouldnt be allowed a vote - therefore any percepton of influence to determine a divional rival's fate is eradicated.

danvitale wrote:I suggest that if there are any trade reviews, SC members of that division should be allowed to provide feedback but shouldnt be allowed a vote - therefore any percepton of influence to determine a divional rival's fate is eradicated.

I think the Sc is capable of impartiality. But I don't think there approval is necessary or appropriate. We are all adults here. Unless based on disinformation I don't think any trade should be overturned.

The SC should not be involved in trades. Ever.


Unless an owner is giving players away to sabotage the league. Which is a bigger issue. In which hopefully the other owner would realize what's going on and let the SC know.

RealJeffSolo wrote:

mikesuszek wrote:

b1ooper wrote:It seems like a lot of these trades were made with players people didn't actually have on their team at the time unbeknownst to the one taking the offer.

I'd like to think that full knowing what some of the people were giving/receiving in this deal, some of them could have come up with a better trade for just a normal two team trade.

Hence, had I known what was happening, I could have gotten Revis instead. I think everyone feels that way.

The fact is, I don't care that Revis was on the block at one point in time. Kevin could have done himself a favor, like everyone should, and shopped Revis around, or re-announced it. The league isn't going to remember that Revis is on the block. And not everyone has the time to make trades like this, which almost feels unfair (not that it is).

This is similar to Ray Rice-gate. Dr. Ken did himself a disservice by taking the first pick coming his way for Rice, instead of shopping around more. Kevin did shop around, denied other, possibly better trade offers, and then waited for everyone to forget before agreeing to a trade with Jeff. In Jeff's case, he knew he needed two o-lineman to make the trade happen, so he pulled from other teams to do it, making deals as he went.

I don't feel that I am obligated to create competition for myself. Why should I share my intentions? Each deal was with one team and the cowboys. If you think of it that way it occurred in this order...

Cowboys and Texans
Cowboys and Lions
Cowboys and Packers
Cowboys and Vikings

Why should I tell the Texans that I intend to trade my new players. After our trade is made they are my players. Why would I want to create a competitor?

I agree with this point. I have had trades I have considered in which the only reason I wanted the guy was because I had plans to parly them in to someone else. Nothing wrong with that one bit. I haven't started working the other teams except maybe to the extent of "I don't have 'a' but if I can get him would you trade 'b' for him?"

Don't see anything wrong with that.



With that said, Jeff is a excellent salesman....nothing wrong with that either.

Dascenzo wrote:The SC should not be involved in trades. Ever.

This

The biggest issue I have is that some people are either new in the league or just kind of naive. Some people don't know or understand that O-linemen are basically interchangeable. Some people don't understand what ratings are important. Some people don't know you can put LBs on your D-line.

There are people in this league who take advantage of these people. We really need a "quick facts about player value" cheat sheet for new and naive people. Obviously, there are different player styles that some people prefer and there are also times when players are worth more than others, but I feel like there are general guidelines that some people just don't know.

There is a mentality with some people in the league to hide the shit that they know that others don't. If we want parity, then we have to push towards helping each other and being more transparent. Shit like, "I told him what I was doing with the trade," when everyone in the league knows the trade is unfair and bullshit is irritating. No, he didn't, so don't say that "he knew why you were trading him," because he didn't. Be transparent. Instead of looking at the new and naive players in the league and saying, "hey, how can I fuck this guy and help my situation?" try dealing some interesting pieces in one area of your team with equally valuable players in an area where the other guy needs it.

It's not possible to have a team where you have a 90+ player at every position (including the two best players in the game) with out royally fucking some teams over in the process. It's excessive.

Every person that enters the league is told not to trade with Jeff. Yet they do anyway. So writing a document is not going to help.

For Madden 12, I think we need the following things:

1. A well-organized player value cheat sheet

2. A better system for the block. The block needs to be a list of players that are removed once the player is off the block. The block has been a forum post where people say "everyone on my team is on the block except for any player that anyone gives a shit about." This makes it so Revis Island gets lost in "my whole team is on the block." We just need a list...kind of how it was on the wiki, but not as clunky.

3. Maybe assign a team mentor to new players in the league, until they learn their team after the first 4 or 5 weeks. The team mentor would be a veteran from the other conference who will look at trade offers and explain why a trade is good or bad to the other player. The new player could still do the trade, but they would definitely be informed. That mentor would have to get any trades they do with their new player "apprentice" evaluated by the SC. Maybe this is too much, but it's just an idea...it would've been helpful to me and I wouldn't have traded LB Brandon Hiller or Jacoby Ford, if I new better when I first entered the league.

SweetassWaffles wrote:The biggest issue I have is that some people are either new in the league or just kind of naive. Some people don't know or understand that O-linemen are basically interchangeable. Some people don't understand what ratings are important. Some people don't know you can put LBs on your D-line.

That is opinion and one I would not agree with.

I dont thing O-linemen are interchangeable at all. There are a lot of very good linemen in this league that I would not want starting on my team.

And LB at DE is something that I don't do anymore because I think the OVRL is a lie when they go up.

SweetassWaffles wrote:
3. Maybe assign a team mentor to new players in the league, until they learn their team after the first 4 or 5 weeks. The team mentor would be a veteran from the other conference who will look at trade offers and explain why a trade is good or bad to the other player. The new player could still do the trade, but they would definitely be informed. That mentor would have to get any trades they do with their new player "apprentice" evaluated by the SC. Maybe this is too much, but it's just an idea...it would've been helpful to me and I wouldn't have traded LB Brandon Hiller or Jacoby Ford, if I new better when I first entered the league.

Ironically this is something I have done with many new owners in this league. Including yourself at one point Mr. Lew. In fact I advised you not to accept a trade offer I made you. And then you decided to concoct a story about sun chips.

That's funny. I offered you a lineman like a guard or a tackle because you only had one at that position and you told me "linemen are interchangeable." This was when I first joined the league. Also, if they are not interchangeable, why do you have like 5 Centers?

Their overall goes up because of their block shedding, power/finesse moves, and strenght, etc. It works well for me. Point is: new people in the league don't know any of this usually, and it's helpful to know.

Then and now. I'm not a knowledge wizard. That was seasons ago.

LB at DE, I think they weigh too little and get pushed around. Cant stop a run. But that is my opinion. Again, not a knowledge wizard.

You weren't a mentor to me just because you told me that I could get Roddy White for Namdi. You were trying to get Namdi from me at first, but we couldn't find anything that made sense. With all this multiple team trading shit, I bet you were going to include into a deal for yourself.

With all the questionable (but still legit) shit that's gone on here, I highly doubt your altruism. Don't use things like, "I did this fair trade once," or "I helped you out once." One right doesn't correct at team's worth of 90+ player fuckover trades bunch of wrongs...unless you're AC and you're getting CJ2K in a trade, I guess.

Saying you're not a "knowledge wizard" is a huge cop out. Either way, I think you're just good at negotiating and putting deals together, which is fine. I think we just want to lessen the "Fucking really?" emails that happen every time we get a trade announcement involving you.

There are good deals and then there are the "how is this trade beneficial to the other team?" deals. When Kris and Suszek traded all of their stars and just move shit around, most people thought it was a great trade. When Ken and Suszek traded draft picks and QBs, it was a huge fair trade. This goes the same way with Namdi for Shonn Greene/Cushing. They are trades where both teams are looking good after the trade.

When people see Revis for two average D-line guys and no competent CB replacement (in a league with a 60 40 pass to run ratio) we call "bullshit."

We want to prevent this.

Wait, Jeff, you proposed a trade to him and then mentored him not to accept it?

Can you guys keep posting the same thing over and over? It's super entertaining.

uofmcamaro wrote:Wait, Jeff, you proposed a trade to him and then mentored him not to accept it?

Yes. That did happen. I made him an offer, but told him he could probably get a better one. And then suggested some teams who may give it to him based on trade blocks and talks I had had previously.

Not that its worth anything, but if I was as monstrous as you make me feel I think I would have noticed the transition Mass Effect 2 style.

I feel most, or rather all of my critics are on the outside looking in on these things. I routinely do, as I did with Ryan, suggest that I may not be offering the best offer. Or even use my gathered knowledge to point a team in a different direction.

For example, yesterday I had a talk with Suszek where he expressed that he was a strong believer in OVRL not being everything. And that he needed Offensive line help.

While talking to another team I was offered a player with a lower OVRL. I told him that I did not think I had the resources to offer what the player was worth and that the offer he made me was not a fair representation of this players Real worth: but it was representation of the OVRL.

I told him that he should talk to Suszek and not me. That Suszek may have better resources and give REAL value (tm).

So when I see these broad strokes and misinterpretations of my historical actions I take it personally. Because personally, while maybe not altruistic, I am not solely in this league to win. I have and am putting a lot of effort into helping others.

When I do make trades like these, I never trick people. I never deceive. Most times, as with CJ2K from the Panthers, I even warn them that we should expect backlash.

Sometimes I will spell out my entire position. I made a trade earlier this season with The Jets for a CB I wanted. While talking to Jason I told him absolutely every reason I wanted his CB and why I valued him.

Yesterday, I told him to ask Mike what he thought about an offer I had made him. I told him to seek outside advice so I wouldn't be the only voice. We didn't make the trade, and I agreed with them both after hearing the reasons. I did not pursue it either.

I am not always out for these (99) players either. Sometimes it is just the player available. I did not want CJ2k. Not really. I had made it very public that I had grown bored of playing with Steven Jackson and made some offers to trade him. There were only a few HBs I would have proffered so I only sent out a few offers. Most times it was for someone with a lower OVRL. I was denied.

And after I had CJ I offered him to several teams for the HB's I had actually wanted.

I offered him to the Jets for Calvin Copeland straight up.
I offered him to the Bills for Ryan Matthews straight up.
I would have offered him for Jahvid Best but I knew that Carl the Ravens owner had already gone to bed.

Both (BUF and NYJ) denied me.

Titans came to me with a great offer, but a HB that I didn't really want. He sensed my hesitation and then gave me an overwhelming offer.

I don't think anyone involved was tricked at any point. We are all intelligent adults and in a friendly league. One where the villain of the league is actually some one helpful. Which brings me back to my original point in this long post. The critics are the ones on the outside, looking in.

Without asking I am confident that owners like the Bills, the Panthers, the Jets, the Jags, the Vikings, the Buccs, the Cards, the Falcons, the Rams, the Seahawks (list is long enough, cant remember more teams) would all tell you that I am out to make my team better, of course, but that I have also been very helpful to them as both an adviser and league representative. And more importantly to the topic at hand, an honest trade partner.

I would ask for any of the teams I have traded with to either back up these statements or tell me that I am out of touch, as Ryan has.

Now that was very long and very off topic. so I would like to refocus the ending here.

The topic of this forum is Trade Regulation Discussion.

I believe that unless tricked, duped, forced, done through misconduct or otherwise deceived; trades in this league should not be under the purview of critics or the governing body.

Titans came to me with a great offer, but a HB that I didn't really
want. He sensed my hesitation and then gave me an overwhelming offer.

Not true.

I came to Jeff with the trade without the LB's included.

He included the LB's and I decided to accept it because Beason has been underwhelming for me and I have other LB's that I want to give a bigger role to (Eldon ROBINSON!)

I know my trade with Jeff was maybe a little in his favor, but not much. Jared Allen's stats dropped between 3-5 in key areas this season. He was a 99 last year, and a 97 this year.

CJ is the best offensive player, and I just wanted to mix shit up.