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I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:40 pm

Put together a video to describe what I'm talking about. Clearly, my timing and decision-making is off on most of these interceptions, but try to look for the ways in which players slide around and such.

My frustrations boil down to the fact that while my timing is off, I'm not off my rocker for throwing some of these passes. Instead, the stud players I have that I'm showing here (some are 93+) play like they are 70-something rookies.

Before jumping in with your opinions on what the explanation is for these picks, save it. I already know what I'm doing wrong, and possible ways to make it better. This is only to get some of you to understand what I'm talking about, and maybe have a rational discussion on the game itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waNn5x5tEd4

EDIT: Also, Rodgers now has three straight games of six interceptions, and two straight games of two pick-sixes. He leads the Towels league with 32 interceptions.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by undersc_re on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:50 pm

Mike

I'm sorry. I just watched all your replays. I could see maybe 1 of those passes when you could complain about the game. At least 3 of those passes were you throwing to the WR/HB late in the route. 2 of them were you throwing to obvious over the top coverage. If you want I can tell you second by second on when those passes should be coming out.

Those should have been picks. Sorry.

Maybe its just me.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:52 pm

undersc_re wrote:Mike

I'm sorry. I just watched all your replays. I could see maybe 1 of those passes when you could complain about the game. At least 3 of those passes were you throwing to the WR/HB late in the route. 2 of them were you throwing to obvious over the top coverage. If you want I can tell you second by second on when those passes should be coming out.

Those should have been picks. Sorry.

Maybe its just me.

Wow, Adam. Thank you for completely missing the point.

"Before jumping in with your opinions on what the explanation is for these picks, save it. I already know what I'm doing wrong, and possible ways to make it better. This is only to get some of you to understand what I'm talking about, and maybe have a rational discussion on the game itself."

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by undersc_re on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:54 pm

mikesuszek wrote:
undersc_re wrote:Mike

I'm sorry. I just watched all your replays. I could see maybe 1 of those passes when you could complain about the game. At least 3 of those passes were you throwing to the WR/HB late in the route. 2 of them were you throwing to obvious over the top coverage. If you want I can tell you second by second on when those passes should be coming out.

Those should have been picks. Sorry.

Maybe its just me.

Wow, Adam. Thank you for completely missing the point.

"Before jumping in with your opinions on what the explanation is for these picks, save it. I already know what I'm doing wrong, and possible ways to make it better. This is only to get some of you to understand what I'm talking about, and maybe have a rational discussion on the game itself."

Mike, all I've been hearing from you, Dan, Chad... is Fuck this game its shit. The game is causing me to throw all these picks all the time. Now I see some actual footage, and frankly, its not the game.

Maybe you're right. I've missed the point.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:57 pm

undersc_re wrote:
Mike, all I've been hearing from you, Dan, Chad... is Fuck this game its shit. The game is causing me to throw all these picks all the time. Now I see some actual footage, and frankly, its not the game.

Maybe you're right. I've missed the point.

Yes, you did. I already completely owned up to my mistakes and agree with what you say, but the underlined part is not correct.

I'm speaking very generally using this video to provide examples on how the game works so I, and others, can better understand it.

Fact is, it does suck. There are problems. But it's not my problem if you or others will assume this to be pointless whining, because it isn't. That's not (or at least, no longer) my intention.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by undersc_re on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:58 pm

mikesuszek wrote:
undersc_re wrote:
Mike, all I've been hearing from you, Dan, Chad... is Fuck this game its shit. The game is causing me to throw all these picks all the time. Now I see some actual footage, and frankly, its not the game.

Maybe you're right. I've missed the point.

Yes, you did. I already completely owned up to my mistakes and agree with what you say, but the underlined part is not correct.

I'm speaking very generally using this video to provide examples on how the game works so I, and others, can better understand it.

Fact is, it does suck. There are problems. But it's not my problem if you or others will assume this to be pointless whining, because it isn't. That's not (or at least, no longer) my intention.

I stand corrected. If you want constructive criticism on those passes I'm up for a civil discussion on them. But I do like the idea of actually showing evidence of these events.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:03 am

I mean, I cannot in any way argue that I played this perfectly, Adam. That would be stupid of me. I blasted the ball into bad spots and launched it deep when I shouldn't have.

But the passes also serve a few points:

- Defensive AI at the All-Pro level is a little questionable at times if you actually see a WR slide out of the way of the ball's path (which I'll admit is VERY conspiracy-theorist of me!).

- Early release is crucial. That element of timing is so, so important in this game.

All I really hope for is that we have something to take away from this, and it helps us all.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by SweetassWaffles on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:08 am

I rarely play random dicks online, but I decided to just see what is out there the other night. So, I'm playing this total Madden Bible dude, who was doing rocket catches and nano-blitzes and hurry up on 4th down. But I was beating him 7 - 0 and I had the ball before he probably used some kind of glitch to cause a network timeout.

The point of this is: I suck at Madden and this dude should've been killing me, but he threw two picks that looked like some of the picks you threw. This was a dude who basically passed every down and tried to use money plays, but he is probably a child who is a total piece of shit. I think this year's Madden isn't great, but I think they supercharged pass defense to make it more competitive and fun for people that have to play dick bags...because, let's face it: 98% of the people that play Madden online are asspipes.

I know that you're looking for a good discussion about the game, but I think the problem that I have with these comments and the comments from Dan are that this game is not like real football. Fine. But it's more like football than I think that some of you guys are really saying or thinking it is. It's a competition and it's always going to be a video game.

I know you don't want us to comment on those picks, but a lot of those had to do with timing. I've thrown 5 picks this season with a subpar QB. I don't really have money plays, but I feel like I have the timing and the movement down when I'm passing. That is what you need to learn. It comes down to not moving around a ton when you are throwing (the game will take this as you trying to lead the WR) and watching for your dudes through the seems and hitting them at the right time. Also, make sure you have a couple options to look at.

The deep ball doesn't work very well with the way safeties are programmed, but don't you think you would be super pissed if dudes just kept chucking the ball to DeSean Jackson on streaks while your safety just sits there like a dick? That was my experience a lot of the time in 11.

We can still discuss this, which I think is a good thing, but I just think we all need to just be patient with our gameplans and really focus on what the problem is...I actually thinking looking at the replays like that should show you a couple things to look for so that you don't repeat them. Scrim with Kat or Adam and talk it over. Also, try out a new playbook or something.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by SweetassWaffles on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:10 am

PS. If you really want to see bullshit AI, play some NBA 2K12. If you have a dude even remotely close to you, you will miss 90% of FUCKING LAYUPS...but if you have just a little bit of space, you can nail 75% of your 3 pointers. Ask Chris James about this. It's laughable at times. But, I think that, because the game is tuned that way, it makes the scoring more reasonable. If you made a realistic number of layups, games would be like 150 - 160.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:15 am

Some damn fine points, Lou.

Lemme tell you, it DID feel good to look at all of this and realize what I did wrong, and how to correct it. But this is still lingering in my brain:

1. I WANT to play the kind of passing game where I get to be Aaron Rodgers for once and fit balls into tight spots and expect my receivers to catch them. I DO still expect that I'll throw picks in these situations, but I should reasonably expect that with the players I have, I don't have to play it safe. And therefore:

2. I'm not interested in playing a game that relies on playing it the way the passing game needs to be played here. And more importantly, I'm not interested in playing a game where I wait for the other guy to make a mistake so I can win.

Would this all change if Bones 2.0 were in the next draft? Fuck yes, it would.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by SweetassWaffles on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:24 am

Ha. You missed Bones 2.0. His name was Cobie Ross. But yeah, I think the problems with the game are legit in a sense, and I think it is wearing on us worse than in 11, but I just want to figure out a way to get everyone back into it.

Constructive discussions about how the game is broken are fine, but we really need to figure out a solution to people being down on the game if we want it to last. I think that we will probably only get 3 season with the leagues at full steam (btdubs, my new MLB, Ikeem "Full Steam" Smith is fucking furious with Kyle Williams). This is OK. I think a break might be nice going into 13.

What should we do to help people figure this shit out? I think Adam and Kat and few others can help. I think that the game is only fun when there is a great deal of parity, and I don't want my opponents to be throwing 6 picks when I'm playing them. I'm willing to help, because I've had 2 great games recently where the games were only settled by one score and they came down to the wire. This is what I want for everybody else.

I think we just need to really share strategies and get people to the point where they are not worried as much about the warping CBs and LBS...because they won't be throwing near them as much.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by amoeBae on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:26 am

To highlight, 3 things to pass better and one tangent.

1. Anticipate your receiver getting open and pass.
2. More touch on passing, less shotgun passing
3. Might have to throw it away on some plays with no one open, it happens more.

I will try and prove it by capturing some footage and comparing, but I feel like the instant replay footage is different compared to what is seen live in-game. I have felt like the instant replay footage adds more sliding but I could be very wrong about this, I'll do some testing and capturing to compare when I have time this week. Not saying sliding doesn't happen in the game as it totally does, just think it gets over-exaggerated in the replay system because of the coding or something. Which also makes me wonder if we see different things in online matches from each side as my last match against the Raiders Carl was saying he saw my DBs sliding in for INTs but on my end I didn't and my guys were keyed on the QB passing as they were in zone coverage.

I feel like we're all beating this topic to a pulp though, but trying to help everyone struggling as much as I can.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by danvitale on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:02 am

The thing is I find that I feel locked into animations too much in this game. When I'm using a QB, I feel that I cant get the pass off quickly enough (screen passes, anyone?).

Mike your video makes one big point here, and this is the reason I dislike this version of the game so much - Wide Receivers just dont make the plays they should. There's an avoidance to go for the pass. Catch In Traffic is redundant. The only way I feel I can pass is if there is clear air around the receiver, and even then you are wishing that your passer wont throw straight to the defensive back (that Finley pass a prime example).

They have essentially overkilled the defensive back issue from 11 into 12 and have stopped receivers being able to bring in the pass. One extreme to another.

And Adam, I apologise for constantly venting about this game (and my issue is more about the lack of support and people being able to fix the issues over why it was released as such). Some of us just arent as good as it as you are.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by Bad Decisions on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:41 am

I agree with Mike about players locking into animations. Didn't FIFA do away with animations and switch to a pure physics engine either this year or last year. It'd be nice if they could apply that to Madden. Instead we get things like what happened when I played the Colts in my last game.

I was user controlling my nickel back and the slot WR ran a post route which I felt was coming. Now the WR cut in front of my DB and had him beat on the inside. I jammed down on the Y button as soon as the QB threw the ball and my DB slid not a few inches, but a few feet and picked the ball off. Even I was pissed at the game for that and the play benefited me.

As far as those picks from the video, I've been in similar situations and have learned that if the D is playing zone and your WR or TE looks open, it's already too late. It's true that you have to anticipate your players making their cuts and getting open, throw the ball just before/right as/right after they make that cut, and pray to god the cover back doesn't jump the route.
You'll still throw picks, but it should be far less.

Whether the D is playing man or zone also impacts the effectiveness of certain routes. That single back/2 drag route pick you threw was pretty much destined to fail because it looks like the Chiefs were in Cover 2 Zone that play. If it was some type of Man coverage the play would've probably worked. Although there's still a chance of a DB coming off his guy and making a play even if you weren't throwing to his assigned target. Either that or the DB turbo boosting to catch up to the WR if he's beat.

I could probably go more into the topics above (ie effective route combos vs certain Ds) if there's any interest

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by undersc_re on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:01 am

danvitale wrote:Some of us just arent as good as it as you are.
I feel like that is a bit of a lazy excuse. Some of us have figured out how this game operates and have adapted accordingly. I feel like animation lock is a bit inevitable in these games. Players need/should be doing an action so they have to get into these set moves. Multiply this by 22, and the amount taxing the engine seems to be a lot for you to ask for (I believe Kraig touches on this issue from time to time in some form).

Jeff nails it in the post above me, and I've been sitting on this point since last night. I would contest that this game plays more like the NFL. You hear so much that in the NFL, if you're throwing to guys that are open when you throw it, its bound to be picked. The video above is a great example of it. Look at the first pick, Jennings(?) is wide open, but by the time the pass is read and thrown, the D has now (in theory) adjusted to this and made the play. Madden 12 is about looking at the D in pre-snap and figuring out who should be open, making your reads, and anticipating when your guys are going to be getting open and hitting them in that moment.

(Back to work. Will add/expand on thoughts later at time allows)
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by Goldenboy on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:37 pm

I feel like the hate of this game is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I wish we had the updates from last year, but we don't and have to live with it. I feel like all I heard from at the beginning was that this game was better than last year.

To complete passes you really have to do a better job in reading the defense this year. One of the things they pointed out on the back of the box was better receiver AI, especially in zone defense. You have to know what works against a particular defense and plan accordingly. Timing is the key. A lot of times you have to make the throw when they are covered so they catch it when they are open.

There was one example when the safety was playing deep middle and "watched" the play develop and ran up to jump the route. This does happen in the NFL.

I will say that the game has really reduced my ability to throw on the run. This was a key for me in past years, but it is really restricted this year.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:30 pm

undersc_re wrote:I would contest that this game plays more like the NFL. You hear so much that in the NFL, if you're throwing to guys that are open when you throw it, its bound to be picked. The video above is a great example of it. Look at the first pick, Jennings(?) is wide open, but by the time the pass is read and thrown, the D has now (in theory) adjusted to this and made the play. Madden 12 is about looking at the D in pre-snap and figuring out who should be open, making your reads, and anticipating when your guys are going to be getting open and hitting them in that moment.

And on the flip side, I think this is an even lazier excuse.

Honestly, the sheer amount of damn-near-perfect coverage the defensive AI has is what is the most unrealistic about the game. Watch DBs in the NFL, and you'll see assholes falling down, missing steps, reading things too late, facing away from the QB, etc.

The fact is, the separation between Jarrett Bush of the Packers and Darrelle Revis is MUCH, MUCH closer in Madden 12 than in real life. Jarrett Bush in real life has become a palatable corner that can cover a slot receiver in nickel packages, and you can expect him to play well at times. You can also count on him to fall on his ass, and miss the timing of passes on a regular basis.

Is Madden 12 more like the real NFL? I call bullshit on that excuse, because far too often the way these plays happen is so unbelievably realistic that it drives me nuts.

So in theory, yes, the timing of my passes would result in the defense reading the play and making a play on it. But that doesn't excuse the fact that near-perfect defenders cause GREG-FUCKING-JENNINGS to SLIDE away from passes.

C'mon now. This shit is beyond excusable in my eyes. Defensive AI is tuned-up to ridiculous levels, and stud offensive players can't play like themselves. That's not the real NFL I know and love. And even if that's irrelevant, it's not a game I'm digging.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by Bad Decisions on Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Suszek is right about Defensive AI vs. Real NFL Defense. Just think about it: How many times in Madden have you thrown a lob pass to a WR who has a step on the DB only to have that same DB make a gazelle-leap and either knock down or intercept a pass that should have dropped right in the WR's bread basket if you were to follow the trajectory. Now think about how many times in the Real NFL you've seen that same situation with the WR actually catching that beautiful pass while the DB either can't make a play on it BECAUSE THEY AREN'T EVEN LOOKING BACK AT THE BALL or they throw up their hands to try and distract the WR.

If you want to make the DB's more competitive, fine. But don't tell me that a WR with a step on the DB who's in a flat-out sprint just trying to keep up is in a position to make a 1 in 100 INT 3 out of 4 times. Not if the ball is accurately thrown with the right amount of air under it.

Another thing I should bring up that factors into these 4/5/6 INT games is the Hot/Cold Streak system. If your QB throws a pick before a TD (especially in the 1st quarter), you're fucked. Just give up the pass and start running the ball. Cause he WILL throw buckets of INTs.

This factors into every facet of the game. If you get stuffed running the ball on your first couple carries, your running game is basically dead in the water for the rest of the game. If your star WR/TE drops a pass on your first 3rd down, don't even bother looking in his direction the rest of the game unless he's WWWWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDEEE open.

The same goes for defense. I have to play the Jags and fucking MJD twice a season. Both games in Season 1 my D stuffed him on the Jags first possession. He was held in check all game (minus 1-2 big plays that MJD breaks of every game regardless) and I held the Jags to 17 points both times.

Fast forward to Season 2. First play from scrimmage - 70 yard MJD TD. Game over right there. My D did shit-all the rest of the game. Missing tackles, getting pancaked, not coming off blocks. Got crushed 40-something to 7 I think with MJD running for over 200 yards on less than 20 carries despite putting 9 in the box and run blitzing from me.

Do NOT underestimate the power of both teams 1st possession in determining if not the outcome of the game, than what will be more likely to work for you or against you.

I know this thread is about QBs, but I felt all that was still relevant to the topic at hand.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by mikesuszek on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:17 pm

It's totally relevant, and that's all part of dynamic player performance, one of the features of this year's game. No doubt, Rodgers was worse as the game wore on.

Thing is, you can dig players out of that hole by also performing well, regardless of what happens at first.

I look at it this way: I'd hardly complain if I had Matt Flynn and lesser receivers. Honestly, if you look at my team and these position players, I'm poised to have the best offense in the league. But the game truly holds that back. If I can throw picks like this with Rodgers, imagine how worse off I'd be with other players. Or better yet, how little it all matters to begin with.

That kind of realization makes me (very, very slightly) believe that trading and all that junk is useless. I know that's not entirely the case, but for some positions it certainly feels like players are all the same. I'd put QBs and DBs in that group, where the disparity between them is pretty small.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by CitizenChad FB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:23 pm

Hello all,

First, I want to apologize like Dan for putting negativity into league e-mail threads. I realize that the commish has more important things going and I wasn't trying to ruin anyone's experience.

Still hanging around,

Viva La 4th Sting!

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by danvitale on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:50 am

You dont need to apologise mate - you did nothing wrong.

Just reading Mike's reply about Greg Jennings sliding away frustrates me. Receivers should be making plays. There was a number of baaaat shit crazy plays made by Larry Fitzgerald alone in the NFL this year that you would NEVER see in Madden. And that makes his 100 rating for catching a fucking joke. Could we see that juggling-on-his-back-in-the-endzone catch by Dominick Hixon? Dont think so.

This is what frustrates me. There's no point in reading defenses when you have no confidence that the game wont send a linebacker jumping like Jango Fett or a corner warping in front of your receiver when he's clear. They went from one extreme to another, and have devalued receivers chronically. That's one thing. The fact they've done this and HAVE ZERO INTENTION OF FIXING IT is another.

(transatlantic lag doesnt help too).
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by Bad Decisions on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:41 am

Lol it's not just transatlantic lag. It's just Madden lag in general. I've only had 2 games in 2 seasons run smoothly.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by undersc_re on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:42 am

danvitale wrote:Just reading Mike's reply about Greg Jennings sliding away frustrates me. Receivers should be making plays. There was a number of baaaat shit crazy plays made by Larry Fitzgerald alone in the NFL this year that you would NEVER see in Madden. And that makes his 100 rating for catching a fucking joke. Could we see that juggling-on-his-back-in-the-endzone catch by Dominick Hixon? Dont think so.
Expecting that and then complaining about animation lockdown is hilarious.
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by danvitale on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:27 pm

I wasnt trying to be funny you prick.

I was going on about how we dont see the receivers pulling off the plays their ratings show they should.

But I guess I shouldn't criticise a game that you obviously love and I obviously hate.

Who the fuck am I to want to have a good game for the money I spent on it. I suppose everyone else in this community who didnt give it the perfect scores in their reviews are idiots too. Want to tell them how to do their job?
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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

Post by Bad Decisions on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:46 pm

danvitale wrote:
Who the fuck am I to want to have a good game for the money I spent on it. I suppose everyone else in this community who didnt give it the perfect scores in their reviews are idiots too. Want to tell them how to do their job?

Here, Here! I'm with you, Dan. Also, in answer to Mike's comment about snapping player's cold streaks. I know you can get them out of it, but it's far more likely you'll just dig a MUCH bigger hole before you climb out of it, and that's frustrating as fuck.

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Re: I suck at Madden 12 Part 2

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