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Madden 12 League Structure

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omgitsbabyseat
ZgreenZ
CitizenChad FB
Judge Shredd
Goldenboy
uofmcamaro
amoeBae
cmonks
keeks750
Michael Atkinson
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DarthObvious
kevlarAK
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mikesuszek
RealJeffSolo
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Post by RealJeffSolo Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:24 pm

uofmcamaro wrote:With that said, I am completely cool with the lottery selection of teams.

That is the most "fair" way of doing it. People can complain all they want about not getting "their team" but it wouldn't be by chance.

This seems like a King Solomon and the baby type of thing.

I'd rather see Cmonks have the dolphins than see neither of us with the Dolphins.
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Post by SweetassWaffles Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:43 pm

It's been awhile since I last went to Sunday School, but didn't King Solomon trade for the Eagles while keeping Ester in the trade. That's what Purim is all about, if I've done my research right.
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Post by RealJeffSolo Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:45 pm

SweetassWaffles wrote:It's been awhile since I last went to Sunday School, but didn't King Solomon trade for the Eagles while keeping Ester in the trade. That's what Purim is all about, if I've done my research right.

He also cut a baby in half to eat its heart and gain his strength.
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Post by uofmcamaro Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:49 pm

RealJeffSolo wrote:
SweetassWaffles wrote:It's been awhile since I last went to Sunday School, but didn't King Solomon trade for the Eagles while keeping Ester in the trade. That's what Purim is all about, if I've done my research right.

He also cut a baby in half to eat its heart and gain his strength.

I can't imagine getting much strength from a baby heart...they are tiny.

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Post by RealJeffSolo Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:01 pm

Its an ego thing I think. Made him feel big.
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Post by amoeBae Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:10 pm

It's all in the baby stem cells.

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Post by uofmcamaro Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:24 pm

Baby, the other other white meat.

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Post by Goldenboy Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:15 pm

I would agree that this does seem to be over complicating the whole thing. I would also agree that we need to decide what the new league is for.

For me, I like the idea of expanding the league rather than breaking it into two by skill. When I lost to the Bears last year (all right I got killed) I wanted to come back an beat him, not have him moved to another league.

I do, however, like the idea of the 64 team tournament with the re-seeding.

I am an Eagles fan, and I get a lot of joy out of playing as the Eagles. I would want to play as them even if they were the worst team in the league. With 64 teams we should be able to have have the true fans have the teams they want. Jeff and CMonks should have the Dolphins. Mike and Scott should have the Packers. Greg should have the Pats and Todd should have the Broncos. At least for me it adds a lot to the enjoyment of the league. I am in another league where I play as the Browns, and its not the same.

Before we make any hasty moves, lets talk it through and maybe even vote on it. This is a great league and something that I think we all care about. I would hate to see us screw it up.

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Post by SweetassWaffles Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:23 pm

This whole issue IS going to be complicated because we're dealing with tons of different issues. The "true fans" can't necessarily have their teams because, even with only 32 of us, there are 4 Packers fans, 4 Seahawks fans and 3 Broncos fans. I'm sure there are even more than that too.

No matter what happens, there will have to be some compromises.
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Post by radioheadhead Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:48 pm

Me and Suszek have been discussing further, and I don't know why the lazy bitch doesn't post in here a little more.

Favourite teams and current leaguers will obviously (following a bunch of these posts) have to play a larger part in the league/s in Madden 12.

I, for one, will take my hat out of the Broncos basket right now, because I don't really care too much about having then in the online league, and I'll play with them in Offline Franchise mode for 8 games that I demolish the CPU and then get disinterested in. HA!

I'd put myself in the mega draft, but perhaps we need to look at each step in the draft and see that lifelong leaguers can have more choice.

EG - the only preference I would want to have, if EVERYONE wasn't going to be in the mega-team draft, is which league I'm in. Obviously I'd prefer to be in a division with Suszek too, so that our great matches can continue (and he can continue to lose).

And if there is only 1 Lions fan or only 1 Eagles fan (GODAMMIT that is a Madden team and a half!) they get their team.

Perhaps we need to also think about a potential rotational system for favourite teams. This league & community could continue on well past Madden 12, 14, 17, whatever. And I think that a number of the guys in the league will continue in it too. So, with the Lions for example, Lion Brian gets them in Madden 12, but Nick Rogies gets them in Madden 13. Similar situation with the Phins with Jeff & Cmonks. Of course, you don't HAVE to take the team, but it's more of a sharing, caring approach than having nothing organise, which is kind of the current case.
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Post by Goldenboy Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:55 pm

Don't take the Birds away from me! I just got Asomugha!

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Post by Judge Shredd Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:41 am

toddzuniga wrote: Carl "Shut Me Out" Ward


That's Carl "Cant Score, Wont Score" Ward please....


Only kidding, guys, this is a super league, and to be given a chance to take part in it is amazing. You have a great opportunity to expand, especially as 4th String is going to appear in the game. I imagine Todd wasnt at Tiburon just to see the game, I suspect he was doing voice over chant work.




With the NFL as it is, you have a very easy set up to expand the league early doors AND test new players out for skill. 32 teams currently have owners, only Susek knows how many is on the waiting list and you have Zach and John, who I said I would give my place up for when it all came out about them being graduated.


So with 32 teams, split the current league, top two in each division go into Cup Competition A and bottom 2 into Cup Competition B, think of it as FIFA World Cup. You then open up for another 30 players to come in for this knock out Competition. You play 3 matches, all within your division, the top 2 qualify for a knock out Competition, be that AFC West Runner Up plays AFC East Winner etc, or you mix it across divisions like AFC West Winner plays NFC West Runner Up. Anyhow, you get the idea. From these matches, the current leaguers, 2 in each division will be able to tell current SC if the players were being cheap or playing fairly and whether they would recommend them for a 4th String division. I'd almost say from that, you have your top and bottom division, just from whoever gets through their division/group.


It's a proposal before starting an actual Franchise league, be it, 1st String, 4th String or 5th String (Where I belong)


It's helps people get a feel for a 4th String league, how it works, and the community expands. There is currently only 90 members of the forums, we need more if we are to grow the community.


I still think the league should be skilled based were possible, I know when I got my first win, I'd got up at 4am to play Rich and his Jags, the match finished at 5am for me, and I was over joyed to have won, so much so, I went back to bed and couldnt get over to sleep for 45mins as I was buzzing from the win. It was a fairly skilled match in my view, and could of went either way for the sake of a couple of plays.




On the 4th String league, I would like to call out the Delay of Game penalty, I call BS on this call, I think it's a duffer, I was down 3 scores in my last game and got called on it and sent back the 5 yards, come on Veterans, think of the n00bs, let it go. I have had it against in all my games bar Ryan the Lou's Raiders, whom I had been talking to about it before and he let it go in our game. Sometimes I do notice and I manage to call a TO, sometimes I miss it, especially if I come to the line and defense starts to shift. Just my penny's worth on it.




#LTL BTW.
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Post by Dascenzo Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:49 am

Also holding calls are so random, I can't control when those happen at all so just decline them.
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Post by RealJeffSolo Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:04 am

Dascenzo wrote:Also holding calls are so random, I can't control when those happen at all so just decline them.

Declining them allows the plays result to be counted. Whether you control it or not holding means someone who may have stopped the play was prevented in a way that the defense could not control either.

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Post by mikesuszek Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 am

I've only had games where both myself and the other player accept penalties. Just the way it works, you take what you're dealt.

I haven't had much time to post in this thread, just read through it. But I think (and Bears John and Zack think as well, as we discussed it the other night) that a great compromise is the following:

- First off, THERE IS NO INTENTIONAL SEPARATION OF TALENT. I don't like the idea of holding a huge tournament to determine it, and otherwise it's impossible to. And it's good that we don't, because then we allow people to play in the same league as those they want to play with.

- Current leaguers get a choice in their team, in either league. They discuss with other owners ways to get a team of choice.

- Current leaguers that are "left over" get the option of joining the random draw. All NEW leaguers must do the random draw, and don't select their own teams.

- We do the random draw, everyone gets settled, and then you're allowed to do the team trading/haggling with others if you'd like to switch.
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Post by RealJeffSolo Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:20 am

Wont most people want to stay? I feel like what we want is to mod the game to allow for a 64 player league. I mean, most will commit to a team for all of madden 12 basically, how to choose the league?
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Post by CitizenChad FB Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:31 pm

The original plan sounded a bit like MUT (Madden Ultimate Team) for online franchise (for free at that!). I was a bit taken aback at first, but could understand what Chris and Mike were trying to accomplish. Obviously, many leaguers would like to keep things as they are. My issue with the new system is that it doesn't address player skill.

Here is my solution, keep the current 4th string league in tact as is. Create the 2nd league in the MUT fashion as described for advanced users. Advanced users being skill based/trade savvy folks. Keep the original league as a sim based, classy league and have the 2nd league as a fully featured advanced MUT online franchise, team draft/trading and all. I, personally would keep the two separate. The differences between the leagues could make it worth having two.

Just throwing ideas out there to help get this solved.

Thanks,

Chad (Colts)

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Post by mikesuszek Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:12 pm

Here's the thing, guys: I think player skill may have been an overinflated issues (IE: not as pressing as others would have you believe).

The problem is: it is impossible to reasonably split people into two leagues based on skill.

Instead, everyone can focus on what makes the league rule: a great community where people play together and get better. I feel we have a league divided between those overly concerned about playing with particular people as a community, and those that are overly concerned with ensuring they DON'T play with others because of skill/style of play.

I'm asking that everyone re-examines and re-prioritizes. As people pick leagues, you can actually use both sides to determine where you go. So if you don't want to play with that cheap bastard Mike Suszek, then don't play in the same league as me.

(But if I were ever considered a cheap/bad player, I'd sincerely hope someone would TELL me.)
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Post by amoeBae Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:28 pm

Perhaps I don't quite get what you just wrote their but it's pretty inconsistent still Mike. You say player skill is overinflated potentially yet we kick 2 players this season and now you're saying to re-evaluate our priorities by seeing if we want to play in a league a for the community or league b for the play style/skill? I'm confused by that all.

What I get from the post though is, perhaps instead of focusing on what team I can play and what level of skill I may be; we should have the leagues distinguished by play styles? One sim league and one open ended to allow a more arcade style of play? Seeing as we have several groups of friends/family in the league I can see those groups wanting to stick together and not put team choice as much of a priority as long as they are playing with their family or friends they know. This could be a way to help develop two leagues if the bigger groups want to play different styles and go into league a or b.

Perhaps this could be a hierarchy of what's important for the league/s: Who you are playing with ≥ Play style of the league > What team to play.

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Post by mikesuszek Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:15 pm

You're vastly oversimplifying, Bae. The case of the one boot this season was a matter of a style of play that was considered cheap and borderline exploitative. Yes, the past booting of the Bears/Browns had something to do with being on another level, but remember that this also coincides with the ORIGINAL intent of the second league as being an "elite" league. That warrants this:

Things that need to be erased from everyone's brains:

1. No more "elite" or skill-based leagues (POTENTIALLY). Both leagues are on an even level, and operate the same.

2. No difference in "sim" or "arcade" leagues. Both leagues are on an even level, and operate the same.

3. These may be two leagues, but this is one community. That is why we are trying to "link" these two leagues as much as possible. John and Zack are a big part of creating this second league. They are 4th Stringers like the rest of us.

Points one and two play a big part in point three. It is quite impossible to properly set up and maintain two leagues as one large community (WHICH NEEDS TO HAPPEN) while also continuing to treat them both as separate as possible. It is in everyone's best interests that they consider this a "league expansion" instead of a "league split."

We're talking high-concept stuff here, it's largely semantics. But we need to consider the approach we have to "the league" as being a large community that envelops two league's worth of people.

One fact: The more we attempt to segregate and separate the two leagues both literally and conceptually, the worse all of this will be. I'm 100% positive of that. This is a community expansion project, so let's treat it that way as much as possible!
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Post by amoeBae Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:28 pm

Okay that makes sense now. I just didn't get the sense of the change of concept with the intentions of the second league (originally for elite and/or give a shot for people to play their favorite team) since you were saying using "both sides to determine where you go." I wasn't trying to simplify things but establish some consistency on what it is that we are trying to accomplish here.

So if the idea now is to just literally expand to a 64 team league, that sounds great. Then we can truly have a super owl after each league does their own playoffs as a conference of sorts within league A & B. As far as structuring the two leagues perhaps we take the current league and allow anyone that would like to keep their current team stay as is. Then with whatever open slots and for the additional league give a sort of lottery first for the current/past members for teams with multiple fans. Then after that an open lottery for new players.

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Post by ZgreenZ Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:59 am

Okay, here's the deal. League structure is far away from being decided yet. Nothing at this point should be considered confirmed or even likely to happen, talks are going on right now that include the movers and shakers of the 4THSL community, but we are still in the early stages. What Mike has posted is where we currently are, but that is only fro a small amount of opinions. There are a lot of tough decisions to be made, and we want to make sure we look at each issue delicately and give each issue the time it deserves.

I promise you, nobody will be happy with how teams get decided, this is because there is a limited supply to a possibly limitless demand. We are talking about ideas to make it the most fair to league members, but I know there is no solution in the world that will make everyone happy.

Please, enjoy your league that you're in right now, and don't believe anything you see posted on these boards as official, because we probably won't have it figured out until after Madden 12 releases. If you have any opinions please leave them so we can take them in and discuss them, but realize that people are working very hard to figure this out and make it the best possible Madden leagues for you guys.
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Post by ZgreenZ Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:01 am

mikesuszek wrote:I've only had games where both myself and the other player accept penalties. Just the way it works, you take what you're dealt.

I haven't had much time to post in this thread, just read through it. But I think (and Bears John and Zack think as well, as we discussed it the other night) that a great compromise is the following:

- First off, THERE IS NO INTENTIONAL SEPARATION OF TALENT. I don't like the idea of holding a huge tournament to determine it, and otherwise it's impossible to. And it's good that we don't, because then we allow people to play in the same league as those they want to play with.

- Current leaguers get a choice in their team, in either league. They discuss with other owners ways to get a team of choice.

- Current leaguers that are "left over" get the option of joining the random draw. All NEW leaguers must do the random draw, and don't select their own teams.

- We do the random draw, everyone gets settled, and then you're allowed to do the team trading/haggling with others if you'd like to switch.

This goes into a much larger depth than what is posted here, so if you are unhappy with it, please, just wait.
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Post by SweetassWaffles Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:41 pm

Check it. While I'm totally cool with doing a random team scramble/D & D preseason team pick fuckfest, I thought I would pitch another idea:

- Everyone picks their top 3 teams that they would like to manage in Madden 12.

- If nobody else (or only one other person...2 leagues) wants your number one team, then you get them. If there are more than 2 people that want your team, then the league will vote on who gets the team.

- Each person will plead their case to the league (i.e. I've been in the league for a long time, I've never been accused of cheap play, I contribute to the league, I have a reasobly sized penis, etc.)

- Top two vote-getters get the team. If you don't get the team, then we move on to the 2nd choice, then the third.

- If you don't get any of your top 3, you get to pick your team in Madden 13 w/o a vote (unless there are more than 2...then it randomly moves people to their next choice)...this is unlikely though.

- For Madden 12, if you don't get your top 3, you can choose from available teams or we can do a randomization of the remaining teams/players

- Which league you are in is decided by either you and the other guy (or Kat) who has your team. If you can't reach a decision between the two of you...dice roll!!!

I think that people should be able to control their team, but I also think that everybody wants to reward people who are genuine 4th Stringers with their team...if they deserve it.

What do you guys think?
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Post by omgitsbabyseat Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:33 pm

SweetassWaffles wrote:Check it. While I'm totally cool with doing a random team scramble/D & D preseason team pick fuckfest, I thought I would pitch another idea:

- Everyone picks their top 3 teams that they would like to manage in Madden 12.

- If nobody else (or only one other person...2 leagues) wants your number one team, then you get them. If there are more than 2 people that want your team, then the league will vote on who gets the team.

- Each person will plead their case to the league (i.e. I've been in the league for a long time, I've never been accused of cheap play, I contribute to the league, I have a reasobly sized penis, etc.)

- Top two vote-getters get the team. If you don't get the team, then we move on to the 2nd choice, then the third.

- If you don't get any of your top 3, you get to pick your team in Madden 13 w/o a vote (unless there are more than 2...then it randomly moves people to their next choice)...this is unlikely though.

- For Madden 12, if you don't get your top 3, you can choose from available teams or we can do a randomization of the remaining teams/players

- Which league you are in is decided by either you and the other guy (or Kat) who has your team. If you can't reach a decision between the two of you...dice roll!!!

I think that people should be able to control their team, but I also think that everybody wants to reward people who are genuine 4th Stringers with their team...if they deserve it.

What do you guys think?

+1
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