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Madden 12 League Structure

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:57 am

I have to say that I think Brian's point of view is a little bit closed-minded, completely opposite to Scotty Bins. Scott has the Packers but understands that there are LOTS of leaguers who love the Pack as much as he does, and is willing to give them up for a new exciting team.

It should be said that the way that the league's run is not up for debate. But this idea just deals with how we distribute the teams, and how we integrate play between the two leagues, so that players, both old and new can play in either league, and make the WHOLE COMMUNITY better.

The idea stems from the need to have a fair system of giving EVERYBODY, new and old equal opportunity to get a hold of their favourite teams. The "I've got my team and I keep it or I'm quitting" is a really shitty attitude to take, especially when it likely that there will be another couple of Lions fans who come into the league.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by Dascenzo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:08 am

You're acting like I came into this league with the Lions. I did not. Fuck off.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by SweetassWaffles on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:17 am

Before this gets all out of hand:

Chris: this isn't final. Only like 6 of us have even said anything about it.

Brian: No one wants you to leave the league or not have the Lions.

You guys can argue it out, but don't let this get all "fuck off-y"
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:25 am

I want Brian to have the Lions, and I want this idea to work. In a perfect league situation, nobody would be without their favourite team, but it simply isn't possible.

But rather than criticize this IDEA (and that's all that it is) emptily, make alternate suggestions or build on it.

It's going to be awfully hard to maintain as we are because of the addition of a second league, and rather than seeing this new league as a hurdle, we should approach it as an opportunity, which is what the mentality was when coming up with this idea.

For the guys that run the league and the community, to simply duplicate the league that we have now and recruit another 25+ guys, it's a drag, boring and doesn't benefit the league and community that we have already built. It also keeps the leagues separate and boring in relation to one another, when we could consistently involve all leaguers in one big delicious soup.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by RealJeffSolo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:57 am

Why do we need a system that randomizes? We could just as easily sort the mutual fans together and then there could be a system to decide who gets them. And then an open, unfanned team could be filled by the losers.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:40 am

The other element to this is that, despite not being a diehard 'fan' of a number of teams, I'm sure many players wouls still like to be a bunch of teams.

EG: I would love to have the Eagles, Jets, Chiefs, Chargers, Broncos, a few others too.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by danvitale on Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:37 am

My brain just imploded. Change is scary and I am afraid right now Sad

I want to be one of two teams in Madden 12. The Giants (my real life favorite team) and the Cardinals (I have grown attached...)

So someone get's the Giants, but Errol and I get someone else and we both want the Giants. Suddenly you're looking at a massive bidding war between two or more players (think Packers for the two billion cheese heads in this league).. Could get nasty and you will have a lot of pissed off people.

Also - I dont want to play in the NFC East if I'm not the Giants (I hate the Skins, Cowturds and Eagles)... I dont want to play as the Jets (spit) and god forbid I end up with the Patriots.

BUT WOAH - I could trade them - but what if Mr Ford approaches me, I'd want him to have New England, but would hate the prospect of him trading for the Eagles that he has. If I traded, I wouldnt be able to trade out of owning the Eagles cos it's a once only trade. If I didnt trade, both Greg and I would be sad puppys

This method will never satisfy anyone. It may be fair luckwise, yes, but it wont make everyone happy. In fact I'd say it'll only make very small amount content.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by toddzuniga on Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:12 am

My concern echoes Ken's: there's a good chance I'll be in the league with players that are considerably better than I am.

My goal, and I know this is blasphemy!, is to win the Super Owl. If the league's are skill-based, and I'm in the weaker one, my chances are 30%. If I'm in the top one, my chances are 5%. That 5% doesn't seem as fun to me.

As for losing the Broncos, yes it stings (Brian), but I do see value in it. My best players now are KC Sweet Barbecue Williams and Mario Moss. So, I get that change is good (and even though the Broncos are the worst team in Madden 12, I'll still try to trade for them).

Also, Solomon, I'm not sure I get your complaint. Is it that the Cowboys have the most high-rated players, making trades easier? You're no more of a Cowboys fan than I am, I'd suspect.

Lastly, I'm concerned by Ryan Lewis's "Look at me hug this kidnaped baby!" picture in the sidebar.

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by Michael Atkinson on Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:45 am

As a rookie in the league as it is, the change probably doesn't effect me as much. I think it sounds great.

The team draft doesn't concern me, sure I'd love to be the Bengals but I even nearly have a fondness for Carolina thanks to 2 months involvement. I'm that easy.

Coming in new though, I did find the league more intense than I expected. With such an influx of new members, integrating them with senior players might take some tender loving care to minimise drop-outs. I get the feeling the first season might be a mixture of both excitement and frustration.

Moving on, the greatest club competition in the world is the F.A.Cup. It's history is littered with giant-killings, each minute of every game matters as one wrong move and you're out (as seen through rose-tinted glasses). But Imagine being the lowest ranked player and winning the whole thing or even just upsetting one of the premier players, or the best player taking the worst team(Bengals) to victory.

We're making memories here people!

Love it.




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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by danvitale on Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:25 am

toddzuniga wrote:So, I get that change is good (and even though the Broncos are the worst team in Madden 12, I'll still try to trade for them).

The Cardinals (70 rated) are the worst team in Madden 12 - And they're one of my two preferred teams.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by keeks750 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:53 am

I think this could be a cool idea but I don't like the idea of trading players to get your "team"

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by cmonks on Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:47 am

This feels like change for the sake of change to me too. Are the majority of current players that unhappy with the current structure of the league?

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:12 am

Again, keep in mind that 4th String is expanding to 2 leagues. This idea tackles this issue and tries to pull them together. The way that the league 'runs' on a daily basis remains the same, with the added bonus of the off-season tournament, which is completely optional.

Also, this idea is moving away from the 'pro' league and the 'easy' league, because presumably Madden 12's defense is refined to help close the gap. John of the Bears main strength was that his defensive skills far outweighed the rest of the league. Hopefully Madden 12 will negate this massive gap in offensive ability.

Dan, keep in mind with 2 leagues, there are 2 guys that will have 'drafted' the Cardinals, so you could work with both.

Keeks, I also think that trading teams & players could be dangerous, but if we minimise the players allowed (1-3 max) and make pretty strict rules around it than it could be a cool way for both owners to get their way. Let's say Scotty Bins drafts the Packers (Packer fan) and Suszek gets the Texans. Scotty Bins decides to be an ultimate nice guy (HE IS ONE!) and give Mike the Pack, but only if he can switch Aaron Rodgers for Matt Schaub. I still think Mike takes this deal and is super happy with his pack.

I can say this regarding the current approach to team ownership (as a Broncos fan) - it only favours a small number of people too. But everybody should look at their teams now compared to the real life NFL rosters, our teams have taken on their own feel, and in Madden 12 this will remain the trend, I should imagine.

I presonally think that this league should move away from a sens of 'entitlement' and move towards a position of 'community agreement'. Todd Z and I have both been in the league since day 1 of season 1 of Madden 10. Why is Todd more entitled to the Broncos than I am? Better yet, why are both of us more entitled to the Broncos than Dr Ken, who came in midway through Madden 11? That seems a selfish stance to take, and if any one of us Broncos fans managed to land or even trade for the Broncos team, I would be happy for them. Ultimately, as Todd said, under this system, I would try to get the Broncos, but if I didn't it would not make or break the entire league setup for me. I'd become my own team, just as I did creating the Ditans.

Glad to hear the feedback, positive, constructive or completely hate-filled. Keep it coming, and keep reading.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by toddzuniga on Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:33 am

I think an idea is to pick a handful of people for League A that are excellent (6-Cool, and a handful for League B that are poor/newbies (6-Cool. Then maybe the middling folks can go either way?

No offense, but Jason Suszek and Carl "Shut Me Out" Ward don't have a chance against Old Bears John. I want an Any Given Sunday feel, but maybe that's the point: if you work and there's an exchange of ideas, everyone gets better and catches up. But I still hate that I have 5% chance at the big prize if I'm in a league with certain dudes.

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by danvitale on Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:41 am

Regardless of what eventually get's worked out - I think the first thing we need to do is get a full on waiting list of exactly who wants to be involved in Madden 12.. - what happens to anything "community" when there's a total of 40 players in two leagues of 64 teams? There's plenty more CPU games - is that the direction that the league wants to take?

Another thing - the "playoffs" - how is this going to work given the separate leagues and the need for one roster file to play "friendly" games on live? For example, John the Bears owner is excellent at Madden - he won with a team that he crafted well around his style of playing. - How fair is it going to be if he has to go back to a standard roster file to play the Champion of Champions game? Likewise the same for his opponent. If we are to play a few seasons of this game the team you win your league with and the team you face in the grand final are going to be different - perhaps unfairly so.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:03 am

UK Dan,

The leagues and the tournament are 2 separate things here, sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

The leagues will run as our current league does, with all of the rules that we have and will continue to develop.

The bracket style tournament is completely separate from league-play. its a fun way of bring the full 4th String community together at each seasons end and playing some of the old rivals, especially if the original 32 or so 4th Stringers are spread across 2 leagues. And the idea of reseting great players with shitty teams is to try and level the playing field as best as possible for the tournament. Doing this we will essentially have 3 superbowls across 2 leagues. The two superbowls from each league's playoffs, and the mega-super-happy-fun-bowl, that everyone has a much better chance of winning (level playing field, no injuries, etc). The playoffs would not be inter-league.

And keep in mind, that while separating the current 32 leaguers across 2 leagues (16 in each or close enough) may sound scary, thats another 16 people to laugh at/with and create new friendships 7 fake rivalries with.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by cmonks on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:04 am

So I only read the first page before my initial reply. I appreciate the enthusiasm for change, but the proposal still seems unnecessary to me.

I still don't quite get the reason for all this. So players get a fair shot of using their favorite teams? Or is it to move the league away from having players using their favorite teams. Seems like it's trying to do both, but aren't we doing that already now? So people have their favorite teams and some people don't, and the league seems to be running fine as is.

How will the many new players be vetted? Seems like we're opening ourselves up to a wealth of frustration, a la this season with the Bears, with so many newbies. I'd prefer playing in a league where I know the majority (if not all) of the owners are committed to fairness and non-douchery than playing in a larger league community where there's a greater chance of playing against people who are ambivalent about the rules and values of the league.

And, to be honest, I really can't see myself using any other team but the Dolphins. I know many current players use their non-favorite teams and still enjoy the league and more power to them. For me though (and I know it might sound silly), the game would take a big drop in interest if I had to use any other team. I don't say that as an ultimatum or anything, I'm just being honest.

I'm also disappointed that this would mean the end of many of the great rivalries in the current league. Ford and I have a good thing going, and there are other longstanding divisional rivalries between owners that seem to be just as fun. Yeah, new rivalries would be made in the new league, but again, why break a good thing when we have it? Feels like we're gutting our history a bit and short shrifting players who've been with the league from the get go. Potentially, neither Jeff nor me could wind up as the Dolphins. Ford could not get either New England franchises. Two newbies could get the Packers and not be willing to trade to the any of the old timers in the league who are Packers fans.

I feel like a bunch of us have put so much time into this league and the rug is being pulled out from under us. I guess I shouldn't speak for anyone else, but it's just how I'm feeling at the moment.

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by radioheadhead on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:15 am

By the way peeps, I'm not holding on to this idea like it's the only way, because I'm sure its not, and I'm really glad that some of these point are being discussed. I do keep responding however, because this idea has been thought about pretty extensively, and I want keep adding and buliding on it wit hthe rest of the league.

Cmonks, to your point about favourite teams, and weighting old vs new in terms of favourtism. This seems to be an issue, but with the mentality of "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - I would argue it is broke for guys like Jeff Solomon (phins) Mike (packers) myself & Dr Ken (Broncs). The only reason it isn't a sticking point for us is because ultimately, it doesn't matter which team you are, the league experience is going to be largely the same.

Additionally, it shoud be said that there will ALWAYS be an issue with new people coming in to the league that will cheese and exploit the game, because thats what people on the internet do. This league (and community) is about getting rid of those peeps and playing a fair manner, with gentlemen agreements in place. The new guys and new GREAT guys will become part of us, we shouldn't be afriad of letting them in. Take Kraig for example. Look at this:
http://www.giantbomb.com/kraig-kujawa/72-89551/
This dude's nickname is "The Badge". How come this dude has not been part of the league for 6 seasons? I have a friend who in for M12 too, and I will personally remove his testicles with my foot if he does anything to disrespect the league.

We've have 32 guys at the moment, and at least another 5 (maybe even 10) who have been in the league at some point with the ideal that they would return for Madden 12. Finding another 20 guys, and playing them in the Online Communities feature as a pre-requisite for getting to enter the league, would essentially screen anybody d-bags from getting in without merit. And we assign league legends to conduct these trial matches, and tell new guys: "We are trying to gauge your skill level, try to beat me." Etc.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by SweetassWaffles on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:14 am

There is no simple answer to the issue of expanding the league. This is like the football video game version of 50 cents' "Get Rich or Die Trying."

Also, is Jeff Solomon now currently running the Jets (in the real NFL)? If they get Nnamdi, they will have Revis, Cromartie and Nnamdi in their secondary...baffling.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by RealJeffSolo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:32 am

toddzuniga wrote:My concern echoes Ken's: there's a good chance I'll be in the league with players that are considerably better than I am.



Also, Solomon, I'm not sure I get your complaint. Is it that the Cowboys have the most high-rated players, making trades easier? You're no more of a Cowboys fan than I am, I'd suspect.

Lastly, I'm concerned by Ryan Lewis's "Look at me hug this kidnaped baby!" picture in the sidebar.

Huh? I did'nt say anything about wanting the Cowboys. Like Dan said, I have grown attached but I would much prefer the Dolphins and I don't like the prospect Dan has laid out if I want to get them.

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by RealJeffSolo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:35 am

SweetassWaffles wrote:There is no simple answer to the issue of expanding the league. This is like the football video game version of 50 cents' "Get Rich or Die Trying."

Also, is Jeff Solomon now currently running the Jets (in the real NFL)? If they get Nnamdi, they will have Revis, Cromartie and Nnamdi in their secondary...baffling.

Cromagnon is a FA.
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by RealJeffSolo on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:41 am

radioheadhead wrote: The new guys and new GREAT guys will become part of us, we shouldn't be afriad of letting them in. Take Kraig for example. Look at this:
http://www.giantbomb.com/kraig-kujawa/72-89551/
This dude's nickname is "The Badge". How come this dude has not been part of the league for 6 seasons?

Not to downplay Kraigs accomplishments, but pretty much ANYBODY can have a Giant Bomb Page .
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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by amoeBae on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:54 pm

We need focus. Right now it seems there are two main issues: balancing skill players by divisions and players having their favorite team, on top of the underlying main issue of how to expand the league. The problem is, there is no focus on which one issue to solve, I feel the ideas being brought to us are going back and forth.

The underlying problem is player skill and people wanting their team are two issues that I don't see ever meeting together in a venn diagram. All this talk about expanding, growing of the community is great, however the way it's being described right now sounds more like a marketing company overhyping they have a synergized win-win plan to hit the ground running.

So after stating the obvious, my point is that we need to first decide are we restructuring for balance of player skill (let's be honest no matter how much tweaked the defense is in 12, there will always be a division of player skill) or to shake things up to give people a lottery chance at their favorite team. On top of that obviously there's the expanding the community issue, but first things first stop going back and forth on the main issue here.

I don't really have any great proposal idea like Chris has shown, but a general thought. If we decided to focus on skill balancing we will need to have at least three leagues: 1st stringers, 4th stringers and new stringers. 4th stringers would be b- star players, 1st stringers would be the highly skilled players like John and Zack, then the new stringers league where the selection of where a player should go. The problem with this idea is it would be slow since players would be moved around each season and managing that would be a lot of work. On top of the value of a team would be lost since the building of "your team" would be lost if you are moved up or down a league.

To take on Chris' idea is pretty damn good for mixing things up and giving the opportunity for people to get their favorite team, however it does leave a chance for one big fuckup of a situation where no one is playing "their team" except for the packers owner since it seems there are 142 packer fans in this league somehow. And so if we go that far in switching things up, why not take it one step further and do a fantasy draft? Then you are truly creating your team and it gives more opportunity for people to at least get a few players from their favorite team. LOT OF WORK, yes but we would truly start the season with "4th string teams."

That all said, I'm glad this is being discussed openly months before 12 is even released.


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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by uofmcamaro on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:12 pm

I haven't read through too much of the replies but my initial thought was that this seems really too involved. That may just be me. I know that I am a creature of habit and when I get used to something I hope for no change (if y'all can do a Hope and Change reference then by damn, I will too).


Maybe I am the only one who feels this way but I almost would like to do a year and skip moving to the new game. Say play Madden 2012 and then move on to 2014, but skip 2013. I just think it would be cool to see how teams evolve over 10 seasons rather than 4.

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Re: Madden 12 League Structure

Post by uofmcamaro on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:17 pm

With that said, I am completely cool with the lottery selection of teams.

That is the most "fair" way of doing it. People can complain all they want about not getting "their team" but it wouldn't be by chance.

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